Andrew Pinfold - Racecraft, Risk, And Reality

Andrew Pinfold didn’t arrive in cycling through a grand plan to turn pro. He was a kid from outside Toronto who got hooked on mountain bikes in the early 90s, racing Canada Cups, earning a Worlds invite, and slowly realizing that his engine wasn’t built for two-hour marathons. It was built for timing, positioning, and speed.

Road racing became the outlet. Criteriums became the classroom.

From provincial dominance in Ontario to learning hard lessons in the U.S. peloton, Andrew’s career wasn’t built on raw watts alone. It was built on race IQ. The craft of moving through a field without burning matches, understanding respect and hierarchy inside the bunch, and knowing when to commit. Those skills took years to develop, and they shaped him far more than any power number ever did.

He raced through cycling’s most complicated era. The Armstrong years. The Landis fallout. He witnessed firsthand how infrastructure, money, and attention flooded into North American cycling, and how quickly the cracks showed beneath it.

He competed into his 30s, evolving with nutrition science, training philosophy, and a changing sport. Now, as a coach and mentor, he’s focused on something deeper than output. Teaching young riders what doesn’t show up on a spreadsheet. Positioning, instinct, and character.

This conversation isn’t just about results. It’s about racecraft, responsibility, and what lasts long after the finish line.

Share it with your riding crew, hit follow, and tell us where you want to ride, the next chapter starts right now.

• Get in touch via my Instagram
• Hosted and Produced by Jarrad Connolly

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Who Is Pinfold
• 1:18 Snow, Family, And Life In Vancouver
• 2:03 Early Hook: Silent Sports And MTB
• 4:35 Canada Cups, Near Worlds, And Limits
• 7:18 Shift To Road And Crit Opportunity
• 9:12 Prize Money Era And Local Scenes
• 11:21 Then Vs Now: Funding And Social Media
• 14:17 Lifetime GP And Merit vs Popularity
• 16:06 Learning Peloton Skills The Hard Way
• 19:06 Can You Coach Racecraft
• 22:00 Positioning Drills And Corner Craft
• 24:02 UHC, Aussie Teammates, And Front Row
• 26:07 Pecking Order, Respect, And Cameras
• 29:05 Old-School Grit And Fistfights
• 31:35 Lance Era: Growth, Money, And Costs
• 34:12 Clean Careers And Lost Opportunity
• 37:40 Fueling, Training Science, And Youth
• 40:28 Pathways, Pressure, And Late Entrants
• 43:10 Characters Who Bend The Rules
• 45:17 Coaching Philosophy And Race IQ
• 47:32 Agency, Risk, And Why Wanting Matters
• 49:20 Gratitude, Travel, And Perspective

Transcript

Jarrad: 0:00

Welcome back to the Dynamic Life Cycles Podcast. In the golden era of North American criterion racing, Andrew Pinfold made a career out of racing smart, positioning, timing, and knowing exactly when to commit. He raced through cycling's most complicated years, when power meters were taking over and headlines were dominated by names like Floyd and Lance. Andrew saw the sport from the inside of the Peloton, the human side, the gray areas, and the reality behind the results. He competed at a high level into his thirties, evolving his approach to risk, training, and recovery long before longevity became a buzzword. And now, as a coach, mentor, and leader, he's focused on what actually matters. Race IQ, culture, and developing writers who understand more than just what. This is Andrew Pinfold, and the conversation goes way beyond the results soon. So I hope you enjoy the lesson. Cheers. Good, good. How was your day? It's a bit wet out there.

Andrew : 1:21

It is a bit wet, but it's cold, so it's snowing in the mountains. So that's something I do a lot in the winter. So at crossing skiing, it's big, big for me, big for my family. So um yeah, it's been a real rough on the North Shore here in Vancouver, it's been pretty bad for skiing, but uh we're still we still are managing, and a little bit of snow today is gonna help.

Jarrad: 1:41

Yeah, I didn't actually realize it was snowing up there.

Andrew : 1:43

I didn't realize it was cold enough to, but yeah, well, we're always we're so on the margin, right, on the coast. But I think last I checked they had 10 centimeters or something on Cyprus. So yeah, that's then it hadn't turned to rain.

Jarrad: 1:55

That's that's a lot for for the past couple of weeks.

Andrew : 1:58

Oh, yeah, it's been awful. Yeah, we've had a lot of precepts, just not it hasn't been cold enough.

Jarrad: 2:02

So yeah, yeah. Uh so I wanted to get you in, chat a bit about your racing history, a bit about what you feel is happening in hap- I can't even speak at the moment. Um, a bit about what's happening with like future racing. Obviously, you've got some uh your family, James, and those people coming into the the ranks a little bit more as they grow, and um I thought it'd be a good opportunity to sort of like bounce some ideas and chat about that.

Andrew : 2:30

Yeah, yeah.

Jarrad: 2:31

Um, I guess like taking it back to to the beginning, like, where did cycling start for you? Because I I found the beginning of your your professional career, but like what does what does the beginning of cycling look like?

Andrew : 2:43

So I was probably like um it would have been like in 10, 11, probably, and uh I grew up outside Toronto, and my dad at the time was really into uh windsurfing, and there was a store in Toronto or just outside Toronto called Silent Sports, and you know, in and at the time I didn't think it was unusual, but this this the silent sports were windsurfers and mountain bikes, so they had all like they had all these really cool mountain bikes, and um this is sort of like earlier 90s kind of a thing. Um, so he would drag me when you're a kid that age, right? Your dad drags you along to you know on errands, and it's like I was and that was kind of a highlight, like it's like going there, I wasn't really interested at all in the in the wind servers, but certainly interested a lot in the um in the moun bikes, and um so that kind of got me started a little bit, um, got interested in that. They had group rides and things like that, and joined a group ride. Um, and then you know, that was my first the shops group ride was the first time I'd I'd ridden kind of on my own with a friend, and I had a good friend in high school that was in the mountain biking too. And um, so yeah, we start started doing that. And at the time, this is sort of like 1992, 1993, mountain biking was like really, really starting to get really, really big. And so just started cross-country racing from there when I was young, and um, so throughout the 90s, sort of that's what I was doing, a little bit of cyclocross as well, and then did a little bit of road towards the later 90s. Um kind of found out, I well, if you've done your research, there's lots of I was had a road career, not a mountain bike career mostly. But but um in those days, it was way more popular in the 90s in southern Ontario, anyways, the Mountain Bike race. Um and I was pretty good. Like at the time I would race for on when I was sort of uh junior, I'd race for a provincial team in Ontario. Um, and we would travel across Canada to do the Canada Cups. Um and I was amongst, you know, probably uh well I was like like top seven in the country. Uh it would have been like I would have been, you know, somewhere between fifth and seventh and um got an invite to do worlds and cairns where you're from in Australia when Cadell Evans and all those guys were starting up. Anyways, didn't end up going actually because it was not a funded spot. And my parents were like, well, I'm not gonna pay for you to go to Australia, which like it's funny in hindsight now, because like there are not many parents who would be like, No, you're not going to the world championships to represent your country. But mine were like, it was expensive, and I'm like, Yeah, I get it.

Jarrad: 5:25

It's a lot of money to fly across the country. Oh across the country.

Andrew : 5:29

Yeah, across the world. Yeah. So I so anyhow. Um, so I was really like, and those days, uh, cross-country racing was they were marathons, like they were really, really long. Uh, even junior races, I think, were like two hours long, and then elites were even longer sometimes. Anyhow, um that was like my strength was not in long stuff. Like I was okay, obviously, but I wasn't like the endurance part of it wasn't good. What I was good at was um like that fast twitch kind of sprinting amongst the endurance athletes, anyway. So as I started um mountain bike, you know, like everyone was like, well, you can't just mountain bike, you have to train on the road, do some road racing. So I did some road racing and I found figured it out that physiologically that suited me really well, the shorter, shorter efforts. I kind of joked that like had mountain biking been the way it is now, then with like 20-minute short track races, maybe I would have never stopped mountain bike racing. But um, anyhow, figured out that I was uh a lot better at road racing. Um again did some projects with the provincial team uh to do that, did um you know, like uh Canada Summer Games and things like that, and did well. Um and sort of at the time, this is like late 90s, as I'm discovering I'm better at road, um kind of the bottom, like the like everything built up really, really big in Canada, kind of late 90s into mountain biking, and then it just the bottom fell out of cross-country racing. Like back in those days, oh, late 90s, you'd probably have you know, at least a hundred guys on the line of a Canada Cup Elite race, like really big fields, and like it was sponsored by like not cycling companies, like like you know, like Via Rail sponsored a team when I was racing, Sunlight Soap sponsored a team. So it was like, anyways, there's a lot more money that kind of fell out of it, coincided with you know road getting increasingly popular to coincide with like Armstrong coming back, and then and then that kind of like I transitioned and I started mainly road racing, in fact, like almost exclusively road racing, then from sort of like 2001. Um, and there was money to be made like in those days, even in local Ontario racing, I was racing for a team called Ital Pasta. You know, I didn't need a a summer job when I was in university. I just I made like 500 bucks a weekend because I was winning prize money.

Jarrad: 7:53

Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting because like I came into let's call it adult cycling, sort of that 2006-2007 was when when I started paying enough attention as like a 17-18-year-old to know what was going on in that world. But looking back at that late 90s and even like the downhill side of things, the cross-country side of things, as you say, like you had a bunch of guys transitioning, like um cross-country mountain bike was just coming into the Olympics. There was so much limelight on cycling in general, um, and it's like I feel like it's it was like almost the prime time or the heyday of of it, or do you think that's oh I yeah, for mountain biking it was for sure.

Andrew : 8:43

I mean, the fields were massively full like you could get you know uh back in those days, like so when in the 90s, I was my parents paid for maybe one bike. Yeah. And then a shop would give me a bike, like at when I was like uh under 17. The second year, I think they paid for my first bike when I was you and then I and then I raced for there was a chain of national chain of stores called Psychopath. And there was so much money coming in these stores, they're like, Oh yeah, we'll we'll just pay for you to travel and your entry fees. And here, and by the way, here's a bike that you can use for the year. And then it kind of every other year the the the the the shop would just give me a bike that I could use, like that I could have, you know, like and I raced on some really nice bikes and kept them. And then yeah, there was just so much so much money corporate side of things as well, and then for a mountain bike, and then um, you know, the other side of uh like just the shops were doing so well as well. Yeah. Um, obviously, uh, because I wasn't an anomaly, uh, and it was really nationally, like there was people racing coming out of Saskatchewan and Manitoba and like small, small provinces who were you know, guys were were traveling supported by their bike shops.

Jarrad: 9:55

So were you at that time mainly traveling just Canada or were you full North America at that point?

Andrew : 10:01

No. So I never like juniors at that time generally did not travel outside of Canada, like we do the Canada Cup server series, so that's what I did. Yeah, so I didn't and and that was with on the provincial team, and this and another like how how things were structured and funded, the Ontario provincial team. I think you might have like I c I came out to BC several times, raced in Whistler, Rossland, all I don't think my I think my there was like a $150 chargeback or something, but everything else was taken care of. Yeah, wow. It was it was, you know, I I joke because my um my sister-in-law, her her um her kids are in hockey, play a lot of hockey, and they're like, Well, we're just sacrifice, you know, and it's obviously really expensive these days to play hockey. And she's like, Well, you know, we're just sacrificing the way your parents would have sacrificed for you to when you were young and racing. And I'm like, they really didn't. Like, like you, I they gave me a bike and they got me to the races, but financially, like, really wasn't a lot out of their pockets, truthfully. Like, it was just there was such a support structure that was in place for for kids that were you know showing interest in doing well. Um, that yeah, I think back and I'm like, it's a lot different now. Yeah, a lot different now.

Jarrad: 11:13

Yeah, for sure. Like, I'm sure uh as you mentioned, like seeing what you're going through with James now and where that's going in the future, and then from what it sounds like back then, it seems like there was just like almost a unlimited checkbook to some degree.

Andrew : 11:29

Um Yeah, I mean, if you did what and it and it was and it was pure results, right? It was like it had nothing to do with your followers on social media and your engagement. It was like, did you win this bike race? Are you top three in the country? You you know, what have you? Yeah. And that was sort of like, yeah, that was your resume. And unless you're a total jerk or something, something was really wrong with you, um, yeah, you're probably gonna be taken care of to some extent. Whereas now, I mean, it's probably I I mean, the I I don't have to tell you, but the but the bike industry has gone through just, I mean, it's just been a tempest, right? Like the storm that it's had to weather. Um it'll be interesting to see if it ever gets back and and uh if it ever, you know, even but I think you know, engagement with social media and all that other stuff is like that's super important for companies now as well, right? They see the value in that, and I think there's value, there's good things about that to be able to tell a story and things like that. And I don't think results are the be all and end all, but you know, it's it's more complicated.

Jarrad: 12:33

There's no formula, like yeah, you know, like yeah, back then it was literally as you said, it was kind of cutthroat. It was like, did you win? Yes or no? Yeah, let's move to the next race. Yeah, and and it was that simple. And um as you say, like these days, there's how did you celebrate, how did you showcase the story, how did you do all of these other things that you can leverage on before you even talk about the result, which is kind of kind of crazy to talk about now, but yeah, and and I so I mean, um one of my good mates growing up and in uh well well in university anyways, Jeff Kabush, and you know, he's got a storied career in mountain biking.

Andrew : 13:14

And I know he even says it now, he's like, I don't think I, you know, if I had to do it all over again or start all over again now and do it again. I mean, he won World Cups and you know, national team Olympics, blah, blah, blah. He's like, it's it's a grind to do all that social media stuff. And there's no, yeah, it's ambiguous, it's subjective. It's like I don't yeah, I can't just get I just can't have the r the goal of getting the results, and that will do it. I have to have all this other stuff that I have to think about in order to to get the support that I need, right?

Jarrad: 13:44

And and I somewhat agree with him. Like I I'm definitely a person of like the more work I put in, the better the result is I expect to get out of it. And I feel like with a lot of this social media and things like that, it's there's there's no exact X in, Y out. It's yeah, it's so fluctuating. And I actually remember, I can't remember the exact thing that Jeff said, and you may remember this, but when Lifetime Grand Prix first came out and they did all the invites and the celebrity, let's call it celebrity athletes, yeah, and like yes, all the athletes in that were quite amazing. Oh they are quite amazing, I should say, but I remember Jeff putting something out there in the the world about hey, like, I'm this good, these are my numbers, these are my results, but I got overshadowed by these people that have so much more following. Yeah. And it's like quite interesting.

Andrew : 14:40

Yeah, I mean, I guess if it's up front and everybody knows that, you know, it's not strictly about what you can do on a bike, uh, and then there's the the there's the addition to that. Yeah, I mean that that lifetime Grand Prix, I it's it's hard to kind of wrap your head around that a little bit. Um because everybody can race it. Like Jeff could he can turn he could turn, he's not he can't be in the overall, right? Like he doesn't call, but he can turn up and beat them all. I mean, he's not beating them all nowadays, but no disrespect, Jeff. But like um, but but you know, like somebody like him back, you know, who's who's coming over from Europe that nobody's ever heard of can pin a number on and win, but they're not part of the uh Yeah, and and I think uh that's a good way of putting it.

Jarrad: 15:24

I didn't even think of that side of things, but yeah, like technically none of the races are lifetime expenses.

Andrew : 15:31

They're not closed, no.

Jarrad: 15:32

They're like there still is a public aspect to it. So yeah, you could technically race the Lifetime series, and if you do well enough, I'm sure they'll invite you back next year. Yeah, you'd hope so. You'd hope so. But anyway, yeah. Going back to to yourself and and talking a bit about your moving into more of a professional cycling career and things like that, and and what you just mentioned about the the mountain biking and doing so much travel and and that side of things, what was that transition like? Obviously, uh the crits were cut starting to explode a bit more. There's well, crits have been around for a long time, but obviously the the spectacle of the crits were getting a lot louder, and I feel like North America was kind of taking over that sort of crit racing as such, as as North America does, and it's it's very much a spectacle. But going from the mountain bike side of things and the stuff you had learnt with that, how did that transition look?

Andrew : 16:29

Honestly, I don't know if I I there was a I mean there wasn't a lot of transferable skills, honestly, from mount-I mean, obviously I had some had bike handling skills, but I definitely had a lot to learn. Um you know, I didn't take much in terms of learning how to figure out how to ride in a Peloton. Like um I like one of my first years on Etopa, I would have been I think I was um the year that I I was the national criterion champion, and this is like 2000, I think. Anyways, it was either 99 or maybe even been earlier in that year. Like I would go to I was provincial, like I was the best there was in Ontario at crit racing, and like if I wanted, you know, if I wanted to move up in the pack in a crit, I just pulled off to the side and I pedaled harder and up I went. And then I remember going down to the States, and there was a guy, Andrew Randall, who I raced with in um in Ontario, and he raced professionally for I think it was seven up or jet fuel. Anyways, nine times out of ten I would beat him. If it was a sprint, I'd always beat him. But you know, he might get in a breakaway, whatever, but in Ontario. And we went down to this race in which was like one of the it was a you know a big US crit where all the crit riders were there in New England somewhere. It was a like eight tenths of a mile course, super short, techie. And at this point I never learned how to move, like move around in the Peloton, apart from like I just step out and move up, you know, pedal harder. And I quickly found myself like towards the back, trying to out-accelerate people to move up in the corner, like out of the corner, trying to accelerate. And finally, I found myself, I'm like, there's no like a lot of people dropped out because it was hard. But I was like the last one in the back. And uh, Andrew Randall and this really well-known guy at the time, Roberto Gaggioli, there was two of them, they broke away and lapped, lapped me. Like, and they came behind and I'm like, How the hell did this even like I like I know I can physically beat you, Andrew, all the time. How like what am I missing? And that's what you know, that would have been 2000. And frankly, like it took me, I would say I was still learning by 2011 when I stopped, yeah, how to really position um and to to handle my bike. And I had some great teammates along the way, particularly Australians, actually, a couple Australians towards the end of my career that I actually really benefited from. Because the difference in Canada, those skills, like we work on building an well, I mean, I'm generalizing, but it like it's still, I think, to some extent present. We in road, we we're great at building an engine, but like that racecraft and the positioning and all that, like that's something that I lend I I I definitely gravitated towards. And it doesn't get coached as much, um, especially like it doesn't. And so I I it took me years, uh honestly, to to build up those skills.

Jarrad: 19:31

Do you do you think that that's a coachable skill?

Andrew : 19:34

100%.

Jarrad: 19:35

In what way? Because I'm trying to think about it when like there's there's definitely cues and sort of I'm trying to think about how I would say this, like there's definitely ways you can talk about it.

Andrew : 19:48

Yeah.

Jarrad: 19:50

What would you do to to teach somebody that like outside of Well you you race BMX, right?

Andrew : 19:56

Yeah, for sure. Right? You learn how to position yourself into a corner to move up and defend a corner path, you know what I mean? So it's like it's that, but for an hour, right? It's f it's f it it's mainly it's about figuring out how to gain position in a group of riders without expending energy. Yeah, and so that's it's not you can you can do some drills, and I've done it with Devo. Um there are some drills that you can definitely do to um to kind of get the basics and the fundamentals to doing that, and then there's no there's no there's nothing like going into a big group and it and having to having to do it. Yeah, but um so but it's the problem is in Europe it comes almost naturally because you have to race on small roads with big groups. Yeah. So if you don't know how to move up or position yourself, well, you're probably never gonna see the front of the bike race. Whereas in Canada, when we're racing on big, wide open roads, oftentimes, with smaller groups, if I want to move to the front, I just move up, I just pedal harder.

Jarrad: 20:59

Yeah, and that's that's sort of what I was thinking as I was trying to ask that question, is like I feel like where I learned the most was less on a a crit course or a uh whatever you want to call it, like a tighter course like that, and more in a road race where obviously things are strung out a lot more. You have to find the riders and the different people that are moving forwards, and obviously the race is consistently shifting left to right and and reading those bunches. And that's where I was sort of wondering how you would teach somebody that, but I guess it's a lot of experience to explain.

Andrew : 21:38

Yeah, I it I mean the principles of just and you can get it on the track a little bit as well, but like I find like coaching cyclocross, like we do a lot of it just in just we set up these cones and it's a figure eight drill. And we're going around it with four or five riders, and it's about gaining position, and you're getting an opportunity to put your handlebars in front of somebody else's and moving them out of your way and holding that position and feeling like. Like, okay, what if I kind of come up the inside, try to try to, you know, um come up early up the inside, come up later on the outside leaving gap. So just building the scenarios of how you can solve the problem of coming up through riders and using using the corners, really. Yeah. Um, and then there's also stuff about, yeah, and once you this is what is it's amazing. Once you f have figured that out and have done that, the races that you may have used to have found, like just like, oh my god, those are so hard. Like they're they're so like they're really not like at like those those races in the US that I that I was, you know, would have at the beginning of my career gone, man, these crits are hard. I don't even know how you'd contest the sprint. You know, finishing was hard enough, contesting the sprint, like let alone winning them. And by the end, it was like uh sure I was fitter and stronger, and I had a team and I was wearing a jersey that was like commanded respect, so that I was giving, I was getting space given to me. Maybe I wouldn't have been when I was younger, but um still though, like when I was racing on United Healthcare, my final years of my career, like we, you know, they can't call the whole team to the front of the race, like at the start. So we were at the back of 150 guys, and I'd be racing. Part of the joke was we'd all start at the back, and um, and there was uh a couple odds. He's Hilton Clark and Johnny Clark, they're they're from uh Melbourne, I think. Anyhow, they they you know, Hilton Clark is a criterion scientist. Anyhow, the joke would be like we're gonna start at the back and we're gonna race each other to see who can get to the front and how many laps it would take. And and like we would take like there were we were not popular because he'd be just coming up the inside and just janking into people. But anyhow, like there were races where like two laps of some of these races were some of these other guys would be like, How did you even get to the front at all? And we would do it on the first two laps, yeah.

Jarrad: 23:48

So which, yeah, that's a that's a interesting topic because I feel like that's almost the best time to be moving forward, is right at the beginning to some degree.

Andrew : 24:00

It's going fast, it's usually going fast. It was always a kind of like it was fun not to get called up because partly to you didn't have the responsibility of chasing stuff down. If you're like, you know, like if you're a really strong team, the team, those the guys who got called up, they're the they're on you know early duties, right? Because we have to get up there to to help you out. But yeah, so it was yeah, it's fun. It's fun, it's it th those types of skills, but again, like um I think it is something that doesn't get emphasized as much, um, even to this day, I think. Yeah.

Jarrad: 24:31

So talking about that a little bit, like race dynamics and different teams and things like that, how did that vary between here in Canada, then the US, and then some of the stuff you did in Europe? Like, how uh you just mentioned like certain teams have sort of more of a priority or a a dominance within the group, like you hear a lot about it now with Legion and those guys and what they've done, and how they essentially just boss boss the group or bully the group around to some degree, and yeah, like we even saw that with uh when they came up and and raced Gas Town not that long ago, a couple of years ago. Yeah, um from where you were racing and and and that side of things. Tell me a bit about that in the sense of that dynamic of the race itself.

Andrew : 25:22

Yeah, so I mean I think I mean you hear more and more, even at the highest level, you hear guys say, Well, there there's not as much respect, there's less respect. Like, and I think that's true, probably is that I think there's part of part of it is always like the older generation is always like, Oh, these kids are no respect, you know, like looking down at the people coming up. But I also do think that their younger people are coming in, younger riders are coming in the sport really, really good. So they're like, Well, well, I'm not sitting around and waiting for you to tell me I can get a result. I'm just gonna like I can do it, so I'm gonna do it. Um but yeah, yeah, generally there was a when I was racing in particular, and I don't know, I my sense is that it hasn't it's it's subsided a little bit, although probably at the highest ends of the sport, you're like you don't want to be the rider that inadvertently crashes Tat A. Yeah, because you're doing something stupid. Like that's so that I think it I think it would still exist. I I would, you know, like you're not gonna push to push him off a wheel, kind of a thing. So I think a pecking order still exists to some extent, uh albeit it's a little maybe a little bit different. But yeah, that's what in the crits that I raised, when I was racing for United Healthcare, before there was Legion, um, you know, I'm I'm you know two darn horn, but we won like Legion had a good stretch where they won a lot of races. Like when it was United Healthcare, like we we went one, two, three, like one, two, three, four, like we like absolutely dominated, and and you know, some of the like we had world tour sprinters like um on the team, so it's like no disrespect to the the American crit riders now, but in those days the whole scene was way healthier, and there were lots of teams, and our team had some, you know, very, very skilled riders that had won, you know, you know, been up there in sprints at the Giro and things like that. So like pr like high, high level. But anyhow, yeah, like they're I think people, you know, partly were they would give respect, partly in partly because they don't want to be the they want to they probably in the long run, if they're a young rider, they want to end up on the team. So they don't want to be a total jerk because they don't because they eventually want to, you know, they don't want to be seen that way. But yeah, there's always a pecking order, and um I do and and now what's interesting a little bit is I mean you see what uh on these headcams and and all the sort of argy bargy kind of stuff that happens in races now, but thank God those things weren't on our like like it was way worse than it's actually I think I think you know from what you can tell, like stuff does look pretty bad, but there were no cameras when we were racing, and part of the reason stuff let was let go and stuff happened that was like blatant, like people riding each other into the fence and like crashing the person was because there's no there's no cameras on people's helmets. So your word's your word against mine, like whatever. Um, and so there were some, yeah. I mean, and even and the generation that I raced in, which was sort of like 2000, 2010, like there was some bad, like there was stuff that went on for sure, but maybe I can count on one head. Maybe there was a like where punches or fist fight happened after the race, maybe very seldom. But like in the 80s, you talk like in the early 90s, I talked to the guy at the generation, but there was fights all the time after bike races, like dust stops, like it was really blue-collar, and it was like very physical after races where there was like quite a bit of, yeah, it was that was just kind of part of it. And so part of it was this like the dynamic that you see in hockey in some ways. When you're talking about like r respect and things like that, it was like partly you gave respect because I didn't want to have to deal with you after like after the bike race. I don't like whereas now like that stuff doesn't happen, right? Like you you you uh well maybe it it happens, but not to the extent that not in the same way, no.

Jarrad: 29:27

No, no, yeah, like well, you took me on a way uh on a very different tangent to where I was thinking. Um yeah, like I I'm just trying to think. There was something you said a little earlier in that that conversation there, but um just touching on the the whole like fighting thing, like that's that's insane to think about like yeah, late 80s, early 90s, that that was just the thing to do. Like if somebody took you out, it was bare knuckles on the ground.

Andrew : 29:55

And and where I mean, I I mean I if you talk to some of the the guys that were racing from Australia and New Zealand back in those days, that was just like I was so I raced on a team Eto Pasta, and John Harris was the team owner. He was like a Kiwi that grew up, and like it was that's what it was. Um and I remember racing against one of those guys, um, Graham Miller, Commonwealth Games champion, and we were racing toward White Rock, and I got in a breakaway with Miller, and he started taking me, like I was falling around because he was the strongest guy, and I wanted to win the race, and he would just switch me into the curb as hard as he could. Like if I didn't put my brakes on, I was gonna crash. Yeah. And on my team on the team at the time was a former New Zealand national road champion, Darren Rush. And Darren was like, Well, like, grandma, I'm gonna sort you. Like, right now, let's get off and we're gonna fight. And then like he was like, No, because he knew like, and those two had fought before. Like they had in New Zealand, they'd hopped off the bikes in the middle of the race and just thought and thrown fists. So, like, that stuff happened. Yeah, it doesn't, it uh yeah, I'm it's probably better it doesn't happen anymore. Yeah, but but yeah, like Australia and New Zealanders, like it was a different sport.

Jarrad: 31:07

Well, I think I think just the what do you want to call it, the society of Australia and New Zealand in those years were was that in general, like if yeah, some of the stories I I've heard. Like I I was born in '89, so I'm on that borderline of hearing hearing those stories as kids, but you know, but um, but moving back into more of that early 2000s, something I wanted to ask you about is obviously let's call it the the the prime time of international cycling. Obviously, there's a lot that goes into that. There's the whole Lance story, the whole US postal team story, the everything there, and and not that I want to harp too heavily on the the whole drug situation. Uh there's enough media and and whatever out there. But what I wanted to ask more about is, and continuing along the same lines of what we've been talking about, is how that dominance of let's call it US cycling or North American cycling changed cycling. Yeah. I feel like everything from the road racing to the crit racing to the the way cycling was just viewed in general in that time period was just insane.

Andrew : 32:27

Yeah, I mean, I think it the sport definitely grew in leaps and bounds. It was, you know, it started with Greg Lamont, late, late 80s, early 90s, and he, you know, brought the sport to prominence. And then we had mount biking, and then and then there was this like there wasn't much in the way of, I mean, road racing's always been big in North America, but you know, it didn't have then Lance came along essentially, and um, and the sport, you know, it went prime time, so to speak. And and it was and I was a beneficiary for sure in terms of the attention and dollars and the infrastructure, the the racing that that that came in. Um you know, because you know, there's the the Tour of California came came up, the tour of Georgia, tour of Utah, tour of Colorado, all these big, big races that had representation from, you know, all those European teams, they would come over and race those races and they would bring good rides, and they were important races for those for those for those teams. And so, you know, it was a huge time in terms of dollars that that that came into the sport. Unfortunately, it was like there's lots of other problems with it, right? But um, you know, I certainly benefit I certainly didn't benefit in the sense that I didn't make the same dis decisions and choices that that a lot of the people that I race with did. So I didn't have the benefit of uh, you know, um seeing where I could have gotten to in that respect, but certainly having somebody that was prominent and drawing so much attention um certainly attracted a lot of sponsorship dollars and dollars to the sport. And I can't deny that I didn't benefit from that.

Jarrad: 34:14

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's definitely an interesting one because exactly as you said, like I think the field was very split and just like the way that those guys like take all away, as I say, take away the drugs and whatever else. But those guys were just so dominant in their personalities and so dominant in their way that they rode the bikes and uh what did you see outside of like as I say, what happened in the bad side of things? What did you see in those people? Obviously, you're on the team with certain riders and and stuff like that. Like, what did you see with them? That separated them, I guess.

Andrew : 34:53

Well I think I will say I think overall, from what I can like I've I mean, I was teammates with Floyd Landis and I I enjoyed being teammates with him. I quite liked him as an individual, actually. Um you know, and and was around when he was, you know, going through a lot of stuff, I think from a mental health perspective, which uh ultimately resulted him uh blowing up the sport. Because if it was no Floyd Landis, everything would have kept going the way it was. It wouldn't there would be no yeah, no I mean he you know he uh he was the reason essentially that things went down, yeah, more or less, right? And and in part was because of the hypoc hypocrisy that he saw going on, and and obviously he knew what was going on behind the scenes with Postal and Astana at the time with Lance and all that, and I think that I mean you could ask him, but I I think that really was the hypocrisy was just graded on, right? Like, why don't I get a second chance essentially come back because I know nobody's doing anything different. And so but I will say, like I think I think there was a difference between certain people who like Floyd, I think in it in at his heart is a good person. I think Tyler Hamilton in his heart is a good person, and yet they made decisions that forced them to live a lie. And I think a lot of them have faced repercussions because of it. I don't know if the same can be said for other people in terms of they can rationalize and are not apologetic and are just like, well, it was everybody was doing it, which no well what what's the point? You know, like not not well, first of all, not everybody was doing it. So you know that that point is mute. And then what do you say to a guy like I mean, I was okay, but you what do you say to a guy like Swain Tuff that was second at the World Championships? He was clean, yeah, right? Like what kind of a career would that guy have had if nobody was on drugs? Everybody else was clean, yeah. And so Kabush, same thing. Um, and so yeah, I mean it's it's it there's not that many voices that like mine that you hear because nobody because I didn't have a huge career, I had a pretty good career, um, but I wasn't one of those guys that you can go, oh my god, he was cheated, because I'm like, I mean, you know, I was I had some great results, but well, or pretty okay results, but I wasn't the uh I can't jump up and down and say, well, if you took out the five dopers, I'd be Olympic champion, but you you can for some of the guys that I rode with.

Jarrad: 37:36

Yeah, yeah, which is a whole nother topic again, like and yeah, I feel yeah, I feel cheated for them, let alone like themselves.

Andrew : 37:45

Like I could only imagine like knowing what that was like and yeah, it's hard because you know, I I mean it was it's tough to not look at like l literally go back to some of the results sheets and go, you know, you and it's not even the guys that you knew or didn't know. It's guys that you can just that tested positive or that were in the reason decision, like you can take them out, like you can they, you know, yeah, um like they got done. And so yeah, it's yeah, I think that's that's the main thing is like it's not so much the results necessarily that I mean from my perspective anyways, I don't know, like when I had my best days, when I was really good, I was pretty good. Like I think I was at a level that I, you know, like if I take my maybe 15 best days that over the course of my career, uh across my career, like those days would have been competitive in a like quite high level of racing. But I don't know. I don't like I the the ambiguity of knowing where my career would have been otherwise. I mean, I I don't lose sleep over it, but but uh that that's a regret, let's put it that way. It's a regret as much knowing, like going, geez, like yeah. And it was and it wasn't just like in those early 2000s, it was as much the North American Peloton as it was the European Peloton. The drugs are the drugs were here too. Um, and so you know, like there was a uh uh guy in in BC, Kirk O'B, who was the US national champion. He was named in the reason decision, and like he got done by Usada and he he raced for postal. I went, I mean, I had to race them head to head locally all the time, right? So, you know, it wasn't it's not just like this, like, well, it just happened in Europe or whatever. It didn't just happen in Europe. It was it was like at the big the big races in North America were important to win, and and those guys were were taking the same stuff.

Jarrad: 39:46

Yeah, yeah, it's it's quite an interesting thing, and it's literally a an A or B decision. There's there's almost no in-between, I feel like. It's pretty hard. And listening to the way you're talking about it, it's it's very much I can go down this path, and there's sort of a undetermined level I can get to, or I can go down this path and I can live clean with myself.

Andrew : 40:12

Yeah, yeah, and I've never lost sleep going, oh my gosh, I cheated and I've had to lie to my family, lie to my kids, and like I've heard stories of of guys that like they've really caused some strife amongst their family and their parents, and you know, they've lived up in a certain way, and they've because you know, because what that's not when you're 15, 16, and that's what you dream about doing. You don't think that that's gonna have to be a choice, right? That's not the same person, like you're not an act, you're not like conniving and cheating when you're 50. Most people aren't, anyway, um, about how you're gonna get ahead in the sport, and then that gets presented to you, and then you have to kind of like you're still that person, you're still that kid for a lot of these guys, but now you have to, you know, switch and now you now you're living a lie, more or less, and then you get caught, and what you know, like it's those guys get caught, and then they they have to mount a defense and raise all this money, and then it perpetrates, you know, it like makes it even worse, right? And so, yeah, I I'm yeah, quite pleased that I never had to do that, but you know, I had a I went to school and I had other options, at least, and I just was fine doing what I was doing, and I didn't ha I didn't think about it.

Jarrad: 41:28

Yeah. So you mentioned like 15, 16 year olds and the way that they're making decisions and and things like that. Thinking about all the data, science, everything that's going into the sport these days, and how you can everything, nutrition, w whatever way you want to look at the sport, it's down to like the smallest of small margins now that I feel like they're looking into. How do you think that varies? And like we can take this as far as you really want, I guess, but in the sense of like race tactics and and that sort of thing, Javen mentioned a little bit before where riders are turning up younger and younger, stronger and stronger, and you look at like Tarde or Winkegaard or any of those riders, and they're winning tours at points where people weren't even thinking about winning tours in the past. Yeah. Um, how do you think that that's changed the world of cycling like from science?

Andrew : 42:33

Well, I mean so much, I mean, it's become like a lot of the detail, like the biggest one, I think, is nutrition, is which has really helped. Um, one is the train I think we're the training science has has gotten to the point where they've recognized that a kid who's you know, post-puberty 16, 17 can train a heck of a lot because they have a lot of um you know hormones that are going through their body. They've like they're basically on on testosterone, but you know, and so that coupled with the fact that like people don't bonk anymore. Yeah, they just don't, like they fuel enough, they they recognize that actually to get the most out of your body you have to replenish it or or fuel it, right? I can remember riding and we were not eating anywhere near enough food. And so we were just like, there's lots of guys who suffered probably from metabolic stuff going on because they would just they're doing damage to their body. They weren't eating enough when they're riding, and they're trying to lose weight and they're withholding food. You know, the opposite of what they should have been doing, which is like basically just going to town when they're riding, eating, and then by the time you get home, you're not really that hungry, and then you just I mean, that's how I trained the last couple years of my career because I was uh trained by Inigo Samolan, who was actually Tadday's coach, and that was kind of the the beginning, like around the time when this. Was kind of coming through, and it's like I just was going on my bike and I pig it out, and I'm like, I'm going faster, I'm stronger, and I'm losing weight. How does that how does that make it like I'm just giving my body what it wants, but I would just eat like crazy on the bike and then get home and I don't have to murder the fridge because I'm not bonked and it just like I could do it every day. But yeah, so I think there's like in terms of what's happened is I think one is sports science is definitely it, you know, it's uh it's improved a great degree. And then, you know, we're training younger athletes like like how we would have trained them a little bit older, recognizing that they they can handle that load physically. I don't m we can get into other sides of the thing about like, you know, whether it's positive about you know, working, you know, training to that extent when they're that young. I think the general thought is like they'll probably everybody can have that sort of 10-year period where they're gonna be kind of you can kind of live like a monk and you can um have your career, whereas it used to start when you're 23 and take into your 30s. Now I think people are like, well, it starts when you're yeah 17, and by the time you're 27, you're kind of yeah, you you're ready to ready to do something up, to do something different. So um, but it's yeah, it's especially having a kid who's kind of just starting to come into that, who's you know, keen on biking. And it's it's a it's a tough one because it is like you look at how everything's happening younger and younger in terms of the the pressure to perform, because on the roadside, anyways, it's like, well, you gotta go to Europe, you gotta figure out how to race in Europe, and then because you want to get on to one of the the feeder junior teams, because you need to be doing well at junior on those feeder junior teams, because then you need if you know, then you need to get on to a World Tour U23 team. So there's this whole structure set in place, right? That you kind of that I think people perhaps wrong leap, although maybe I'm wrong, is starting to look like unless you're on that track, it's very difficult for you to come in come in, come in from another way. Although the optimist in me says that I think you'd be able to. I just think it's the pressure that families and kids see to tr to do it that way, yeah, is such that they don't even think that I can come in later.

Jarrad: 46:26

There was um completely mental blanking on her name, but she it's gonna kill me. I'll have to look it up later. But um she came into world tour cycling off the back of winning esports like world champs of some sort. Okay, and I'm mental blanking on her name, but she was a uh an Australian girl, like obviously, very, very impressive cyclist, but hadn't done huge things in Europe, mainly Australia, Asia Pacific type. Yep, and uh yeah, obviously when COVID was blowing up, things like that, and then was able to get in from the side, but um purely based on she showed that she had the engine and then she could train into it. So I think when you talk about coming in from the side or uh an an alternative, I think there is still that to be had.

Andrew : 47:24

Oh, there have yeah, I think it's they're for sure. And you know, the the the one thing you think of is like the teams don't care. No, if you if you can do it, they're they're gonna hire want to hire you, right? Like they they don't have any they they're not well, we haven't seen if they believe that they can that that they can take you and develop you, right? Like I mean, uh there was a schemo guy that came into uh Bora, Huntsgrah, that you know, he did fine. His name escapes me now, but you know, it's but it's it's like it's not easy. Um and you know, I think it emphasizes, you know, in some ways, the the psychology of um of a young person when they're 16 and 17 and the fridge is filling itself and like your day is kind of planned out for you, versus what actually you may think that's what you want to do, but you may not have the maturity and independence that when it really actually matters when you get there, that you can actually live that lifestyle, right? So it's it's tough because you're you're you're picking kids. What one is there's asymmetric development, some kids are going to be developing earlier just from physiology, puberty, all that. And then mentally they might be have a great engine, and this is all they want to do, and then by the time they're 19 and like, oh, I'm I'm not going to school anymore, or my life is a little bit more I'm a little bit more independent, and I don't have anybody looking over my shoulder that this is how something maybe it changes. I I don't know.

Jarrad: 48:58

I feel like uh the Morton brothers had a pretty similar story to that, and like obviously Lochland's still doing his thing with all of his endurance riding and stuff, but even Gus, like Gus is the older brother, I don't know if you know much about Gus at all, but like they were both world tour riders at the highest end and got to Europe, realized it wasn't them, and I think Gus was in and out of world tour within a couple of years, and I may be wrong in saying that, it was it was definitely not a huge amount of time he was in there, and and obviously Laughlin has has done his thing and and found his groove with just riding ridiculous amounts of kilometers in 24 hours.

Andrew : 49:40

I remember racing with him when he was on Slipstream, like like when he was a junior, I still I think I raced with him in California. Yeah, long locks, like he's always he's always a little bit different than that guy, which I respect because there's not like cycling is not a sport, especially world tour cycling. It kind of maybe it's changing, but like in his generation, it was probably a little bit frowned upon to be like an in like it's kind of an independent, different kind of a guy. Like it like especially the European teams, they would have been like no.

Jarrad: 50:09

So that was one of the last things I wanted to ask you about is the characters in cycling. I feel like there's been a handful that have come through, and there's always been that sort of one-off person. Like you you hear stories about Sagan, you hear stories about uh like him turning up to world champs with like hairy legs, or all these different people. Obviously, we just mentioned Laughlin and and things like that. What do you think that is? I feel like it's such a uh I don't even know what the right word is, like classics, or you know what I mean? Like people like a certain way, how it used to be, very this is the line, stick to it type thing.

Andrew : 50:54

Well, I think it like on certainly like from I never I never raced on a European team, but from what I know and of people who have raced on like a Dutch team, for example, like if you're late or no, if you're last to the meeting that's at nine and you turn up at 8.57 or whatever, you're still late, like because you're last, right? Like it's it's quite and maybe things have changed, but yeah, like the cultural differences are such that like that sort of independence and and eccentricity amongst guys is frowned upon for more or less like I think generally across the board for the rank and file. But if you're really, really good, like if you're Peter Sagan, if you're Floyd Landis on these teams, like you can be a character, you can do whatever you want. You can do it as long as you keep pedaling your bike fast, like like this the story's like Floyd, like he would turn up at our first training camp, and they'd give him the measurements. This is in November, right? This is the first time I'd ridden with him. And he's we're gonna do a seven-hour ride, and it's kind of rainy, it's not that nice out. This isn't you know, kind of a meet and greet training camp. First time I ever see him. I see we meet at the like a 7-Eleven parking lot. He's sitting, sitting there. Somebody's like, Oh, here's your bike, Floyd. He had never like they just put the bike together uh based on sort of measurements that have been provided. This is what Floyd, Floyd, this is your measurement, you know, we did the best we could. This is what the mechanic is saying, get did the best we could based on your measurements, yeah, yeah. Head of the bike. He literally looked at it and goes, Yeah, that looks about right. Like, did not care. And he's like, I haven't had any, I haven't had any breakfast. Can you go and get me a half gallon of milk? And he sat on the curb and he drank half a gallon of milk. And like we proceeded to do like seven hours. And okay, like I'm not I'm okay. Like, I'm not not have never been, uh no one's ever accused me of being the hardest trainer. So put that there. But like we were guys like Rory Sutherland who had big world tour careers, um, and some good riders on the team at the time, and we rode two by two, and Floyd stayed on the front right, right against the curb, and all we did was just sparring partners with him. Like, he didn't move, we just moved up, I'm done. Okay, we're like riding the front at like 43, 44k an hour. I'm done. And we just like Floyd just sat there the whole time on a bike that was close enough with measurements, and like I his breakfast consisted of like a liter and a half of milk. And so like there's these like freaks, and like to be the very best at at the world, like they they are freaks, yeah. They're freaks of freaks, right? Like, like, um, and it's it's yeah, it's it's kind of a privilege to be around people that are just like for whatever reason you were put on this earth to pedal a bicycle, and and maybe that means you have some other things that are different about you.

Jarrad: 53:54

Definitely, definitely some uh yeah, different brain waves going on in that that body for sure. So just as we start to wrap it up, is there anything you and I know we talked about a bunch of different things, but obviously with James going into the the future of cycling and stuff like that and whatever he wants to do and and a bunch of different things, and then also all of the Devo side of things that you've done and junior development, is there anything you pass along? What's the main thing you pass along to to some of these up and coming riders?

Andrew : 54:33

Well, on the coaching side, I think I emphasized like I was definitely in my career a bit of a thinker on the bike, and I like and I gained hugely an appreciation for racecraft and that side of things and that development. So um the highly the like what I bring as a coach when I'm coaching uh is not the it's more the the racecraft, thinking about positioning, thinking about um anal analysis of a course or you know, just the dynamics of a race that I didn't get when I was that age. And and for some of some kids they pick it up and others they don't, and that's fine. Um, but that's you know, that's what I try to impart. And then, you know, certainly with my own son, it's as I kind of think back and get older, um and and thinking about people that I knew that achieved great things, it's like you if kids are gonna do well, you obviously have to support them with the with the materials and getting the bike races and doing all those sorts of things. But at the end of the day, they have to want it. If they don't want it, and they're not the ones that are driving the bus in terms of getting themselves training, what have you, it it's not gonna be it's not it's it's not gonna happen. And then, you know, so and then take and I think that that applies to any sport. And then the other layer that I r bring on top of that as well is, you know, and this is like involved in mountain biking and things like that, is like yes, there is a professional, there's a professional career that you could could achieve. It you're probably not gonna retire, you know, off of it, maybe, maybe you will, you'll see the world, but what have you. But it has to be the the the athlete, the kid that wants it. In part because let's face it, like cycling is not a safe it, it's not a safe sport. Like it like you're gonna fall off and you're gonna hurt yourself. So if it you know, God forbid something bad happens to an athlete that you're supporting, you want you don't you want the desire and the motivation to have been out there and doing these things to have come from them. Not not pressure from an adult, yeah, not pressure from a sponsor, because like we've seen it, like there can be life-changing injuries that can happen, right? And so, but I'm I'm fine. I'm I can square that circle if somebody says they were doing exactly what they wanted to do and they loved it, and okay, fair enough. But if it was like getting pushed on them, like that's where I get scared sometimes with like with mountain biking, and I'm seeing younger and younger kids doing crazier and crazier things on Instagram. Like, I'm nothing against them trying to do those things on their own. Yeah, but not don't do it because you want to get views and you're trying to aspire to something that's been set to you by an adult. Like it has to be has to be on it has to be you, has to be you because like when it hits the fan in biking, it can it's bad things happen.

Jarrad: 57:50

Yeah, yeah, we've both both seen that side of things probably many times more times than we want, to be honest. But yeah, I think that's that's definitely the biggest takeaway that I had growing up is like and now working with a bunch of athletes is exactly that is you should only be there if you want to be there. Like, yes, you can have all the support in the world, you can have the most amazing parents, but if you don't want to be there, like find something else to do.

Andrew : 58:18

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's yeah.

Jarrad: 58:21

So yeah.

Andrew : 58:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a it's a it's um I mean it's an I I will never look back with regret in terms of all the things that bike racing has afforded me. Like it's I've had an amazing experience, made incredible relationships, seen parts of the world I would have never seen before, and and got a whole bunch of perspective that you would be hard pressed develop like race, you know, racing for two weeks in Cuba, it will change you. Racing for a week in El Salvador, it will like you'll see things and you'll get perspective, especially if you have a good culture of group, like it uh that a team around you and seeing the importance and dynamics, like it was um it was an opportunity in learning, but like you say, it it you you can't force it. It's it's it it will like I mean it it has to come from within and and those people have to develop it.

Jarrad: 59:19

Yeah. No, I completely agree a hundred percent with everything you said. So good. Yeah. Thank you for coming in.

Andrew : 59:26

Oh, it's a pleasure. That was fun. Yeah.

Jarrad: 59:28

Cheers.

Andrew : 59:29

Yeah, good.